Keeping people in their "dream" jobs w/ Jamie McMillan

Geoff Capelle:

This is Building Good. I’m Geoff Capelle.

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Geoff Capelle:

When you find your dream job, you’re in this honeymoon phase. No job is perfect, but we can overlook a lot of things when we’re starting out—thinking they might get better over time.

Your sacred moments in the zone might keep getting cut short by co-workers who just need one little thing. The opportunities that you thought might eventually come, never do.

Maybe you have children and your jobsite keeps getting further and further away from affordable daycare. Or your employer just isn’t great at accommodating those changes in your life.

Perhaps you’re getting older and the physical parts of your job are slowly taking their toll.

Eventually, your dream is hard to sustain. But you still love what you do. Would you stay? Or would you go? 

Would you tell a young person to go after that job?

This is something that many folks in the construction industry are asking themselves, right now.

Jamie McMillan (preview):

One of the things we’re losing right now in construction is a lot of money because of people not wanting to get into the industry because of the stigma around it, or not staying in the industry because that stigma is actually really happening.

Geoff Capelle:

This is Jamie McMillan. She’s been an ironworker and welder for 21 years. And she’s founded both Kickass Careers and Made In The Trades. Jamie loves what she does. It’s why she’s built two entire businesses promoting the trades. And she spends a lot of time sharing her passion with young people.

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Jamie McMillan (preview):

I speak to over 50,000 youth every single year. And I haven’t gone to a single presentation where students don’t come up to me so excited about getting into the skilled trades.

If you’re somebody that has passion, and work ethic, and you like to build things with your hands, think about how cool it would be to say, “Hey, I built that tower,” “Hey, I built that bridge.” Like, I would love to be one of the people that said, “Hey, I built the CNTower.” That would be so, so cool.

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Geoff Capelle:

One of the biggest issues facing the construction industry right now is retention. Sure, we can spark interest in young people, and even their parents, in getting into the trades. But keeping them there just doesn’t seem to be getting any easier.

That’s something that the construction industry needs to reckon with—and soon—with so much important work on the horizon and no one to do it.

Jamie McMillan (preview):

I see more structures that are going to be built that are more environmentally-friendly, more durable for super-storms. I think that we’re going to be constantly evolving in this construction industry. And I just think that the sky is the limit.

Geoff Capelle:

I’m talking to Jamie to get a boots-on-the-ground understanding of why the construction industry is having such a hard time keeping skilled tradesworkers around.

One of the reasons is that construction still isn’t seen as a dream job for women.

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Jamie McMillan (preview):

When you go out as a contract worker and you show up at the site for the very first time and they don’t know who you are. Many times, they believed that I was a man and tried to change the jobsite or the job that they had put me on, because they wanted to put me in a role that they didn’t think would be as difficult or didn’t need the same muscles or something like that.

But I, ah, I kind of protested against that and really pushed to have the equal treatment that the guys would. And I would always find my foreman and say, “Hey, I know I identify as a female but I want to be treated like an ironworker on this jobsite.”

Geoff Capelle:

Tell me a little bit more about that. How did it go down with the foreman that you spoke with?

Jamie McMillan:

Well, usually when I would get to a jobsite, the first thing I would do is—is find out who was my foreman or my general foreman. And I would specifically target them, walk up to them, and just say, “Hey, I’m a woman. I know that. Please treat me like an ironworker. I need to learn just as much as the guys do.” And I always express, too, that I have really bad ADHD, so I have trouble sitting still and concentrating and I need to be hands-on.

And they were very respectful for that. And I believe that they actually, seeing that I was there to work and I had great work ethic, and because of that I got really, really great opportunities that some of the other apprentices that weren’t forward with the foreman and telling them the same didn’t yet.

Geoff Capelle:

Well, looking back at when you started working in the trades in 2002 and where it is now, can you speak about what it was like back then, how it might have changed and evolved, if it has?

Jamie McMillan:

So, when I first started in the trades, there—women were really a minority. As the years have progressed, I think social media connected the world of tradeswomen together. Because up until social media, there were some women out there who never realized that other women existed in the skilled trades.

I know women in the U.S. that travelled and boomed around the States their whole lives and never ran—ran into another woman on a job. And I think social media brought us all together. And now we have this camaraderie between us, where we can help and support each other.

And we have a lot of men that come up and support us too. I mean, we still have difficult personality styles and antagonist men out there, but for the most part when you go out to a jobsite to prove that you’re there to work and you have good work ethic, I think that eventually even the haters will come around and start to respect you. So. I’m seeing more women interested in the skilled trades and pursuing these pathways.

What I’m seeing, though, is also a lack of retention—and that is a big problem.

But as a contract worker, we don’t have an HR department. We have a job steward. And a lot of times the job steward has been part of that company for a long time and they’re very protective of that company, of that company’s reputation as well. And so, a lot of times if we do go and complain about something, it kinda gets brushed under the rug.

A lot of times there’s favouritism in the workplace. Or you’re working at a company that has some cliquey group. Or they’re family members, or best friends, or cousins, or—or something along those lines. And you’re kind of the outsider. And when you complain about certain people or things that are happening, you end up ultimately being the one that gets ostracized and either laid off or you eventually leave because it becomes a toxic work environment for you.

Geoff Capelle:

Have you had that happen to you?

Jamie McMillan:

Yeah. It’s happened many times. I remember once I had a general foreman and a superintendent. I actually had a bit of a falling out with the job steward on the jobsite. He was being a real jerk to me.

I complained to my immediate foreman, who took it to the supervisor on the jobsite. And we ended up in an office with the job steward, who actually treated me extremely unprofessionally; and people outside can hear screaming.

The superintendent told me that he would write me a letter for my union hall, because it got called to the union hall to be looked at. I had reported him. And the supervisor actually asked me to report the situation, said he would give me a backup statement, and never did.

And when I did show up at the hall, there was nothing to support my side of the story. Even though I had evidence in my phone—text messages—to prove what happened, I was basically just told to go home and that I was being a drama queen.

But it doesn’t just happen to women. It happens to everyone. Things like this happen often.

Geoff Capelle:

So looking at how we could change that, I guess, there—there’s probably a lot on the people who are in positions of power, right, to identify it, to call it out, to address it. Is—is that correct?

Jamie McMillan:

Yes, it is. It’s everybody’s responsibility to, first of all, set healthy boundaries and then behave in the workplace and treat people with respect. This is one of the biggest reasons, too, why we’re having trouble retaining people in the industry is because it does have a bad rep.

People don’t want to come into the industry ‘cause they think of that. People get in the industry and leave the industry because of toxic work environments.

So it’s up to upper management to actually leave their seats in the office and go out and go walk around on those backshop floors. I always say, “Be an undercover boss. Get out there and—and put yourself in the position that a new employee would be in. And really study what’s going on there. Because sometimes some of your best workers, or your highest level of authority on the jobsite and leadership, might be some of the most toxic people.”

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Geoff Capelle:

So what effect does this culture have on individuals?

Jamie McMillan:

It’s really hard on mental health. The truth is: when you think about construction as a whole, a lot of people that get in construction were not always academic people in the classroom. A lot of them were hands-on. A lot of us have things like ADHD and OCD, and our brains work differently.

I have very high-spectrum adult ADHD, which also comes with what’s called emotional dysregulation. And I also sen—have rejection sensitivity dysphoria. So for me, I’m not like the average bear; I take things a hundred times harder than the average person. I take things very, very personally.

So dealing with these situations in the workplace would make me feel either incompetent or that I was making, ah, something bigger than it needed to be—like a drama queen. And because of that, I took everything that people said personally, and I would go home and ruminate, and it would really start to affect my mental health. And I’ve actually ended up in and out of depressions over the years, because of it.

And when you start to feel like you’re in a toxic work environment, at least in my—my position, I would always sort of retreat, because I didn’t want to be in that situation. So when things got really toxic, I remember there was months where I didn’t even sit in the trailer with the guys for lunch. I would sit outside at the picnic table because there was so much toxicity in the workplace. But I loved my job so much, and I needed the money, that I didn’t want to leave, so I dealt with it. But it really impacted me, mentally.

Geoff Capelle:

I love how open you’re speaking about the challenges that you’ve had, how you react to certain situations. It really takes a lot of courage to be that open. And it’s—it’s something that we need a lot more of on these jobsites. Were you this open 21 years ago?

Jamie McMillan:

I didn’t start to really open up, I think, until a couple years before COVID. I had been in this space, speaking and promoting the skill trades through efforts like Skills Ontario and the Ontario Youth Apprenticeship Program, for years. And I eventually was asked to speak at a teachers’ conference for the tech ed teachers. And that was the first time I did a presentation called “The Real Me.”

And I spoke about my own mental health and my ADHD, and how it impacted my life. And I got really personal. And I had so many teachers coming up to me, saying, “That was a game-changer. Why haven’t you been this open about your life before with students? They need to hear this. They need to hear these types of struggles, and see that somebody with the same struggles as them that they can identify with can make it successfully in the skilled trades and beyond.”

It's funny, because I’ve always been an open book, anyways. So it’s—it wasn’t a big step outside of my comfort zone. However, speaking out about some of these issues now within the skilled trades, it’s a little intimidating because there might be people out there that have impacted me negatively and they might hear this. And sometimes I just worry about the repercussions and, you know, rumours or things like that.

Geoff Capelle:

But also the potential to learn and evolve. Maybe it’s leading to them improving. We can hope, I guess.

Jamie McMillan:

Yup, I’m hoping (laughs a little).

Geoff Capelle:

So, you’re working to change that culture. Where do you start? How do you do it?

Jamie McMillan:

Changing the workplace culture is going to be—it’s going to—it’s years. Because will still have to change the mentality, or the beliefs, of some of the people in the skilled trades.

I remember when I first got in the skilled trades, people used to say, “Oh, the old guys, they don’t like women in trades.” And what I found out, actually, is that the older men were actually so great. In fact, those were the ones I liked working with, because they knew all the tips and the tricks, and they were so smart. And they were at the end of their career, and they just wanted to pass that knowledge on.

And the thing was, yes, of course, they had this unconscious bias, a lot of times, towards women: (a) because some of them had never worked with women before, (b) because when they started in the trades, we didn’t have all the mechanical advantages and the rules that we have now to keep those workplaces safe, and (3) because a lot of times it was like they would look at you like you were their daughter, or their wife, or their sister, and they wanted to protect you, and they don’t want you to do all these heavy demanding things or work in environments that were, maybe in the coke ovens, where there was bad dust, and coke dust, and the benzene, and all those things. And they were worried about you. Like, I remember this one old guy was like, “But I want you to have babies someday. You shouldn’t be working up here.”

But when you show them that you’re willing to work, man, those guys are great.

But what I found is that it was between 30- and 50-year-olds that we were struggling with the most—because the thing about contract construction is you actually become their competition. So when you go out to a job, remember in construction you’re working yourself out of the job, all the time. You get hired to go build something; when it’s done, you get let go to go to another job.

If these jobs last long, everybody wants to stay there because you get comfortable working in that environment.

So as the jobs start to diminish and they start to lay people off, that’s where it becomes a dog-eat-dog world. And everybody that got along at the beginning is now kind of bickering, and trying to outdo each other, and throwing each other under the bus to stay on that job long-term. If, as a female, you get kept longer than a male, that’s when rumours start, and all of a sudden, “Ooh, how did you make it here? You’ve missed the layoff longer than so-and-so missed the layoff, so obviously something is going on with you and the boss.” And that’s where rumours start to get out of hand.

That’s going to be something that’s going to be difficult to change. I believe in changing the mindset of the younger generation. And that’s why I feel like we need to reach the younger generations—to change their mentality, so when they’re coming in to these careers they have a different mindset about these careers.

[music]

Jen Hancock:

At Chandos, building is about more than concrete and steel, drywall and windows. It’s how we build and who we build with that determines the legacy we leave behind.

[music]

Jen Hancock:

Our commitment to a more diverse and sustainable future is built into every aspect of our business: the people, the processes, the projects, and every community we’re part of.

Let’s build better together.

[music]

Jen Hancock:

Find out more, or join our team, at Chandos.com. That’s C-H-A-N-D-O-S-dot-com.

Geoff Capelle:

So I guess, breaking it down into two pieces—first the recruitment and then the retention—on the recruitment side…. So we absolutely have a problem with recruitment in the construction industry. There aren’t enough people coming in, period. And there certainly aren’t enough people who are in equity-seeking groups: women, LGBT+ individuals, so on. How do we get people excited to work in the trades?

Jamie McMillan:

I don’t see there being a problem with getting people excited to be in the trades. I speak to over 50,000 youth every single year. And I haven’t gone to a single presentation where students don’t come up to me so excited about getting into skilled trades. And I—I’ve done weeklong tours where at the end of the tours, OYAP coordinators are so excited. They’re like, “Oh my goodness! Twenty-seven people signed up for skilled trades pathways.”

The problem isn’t getting them excited about the skilled trades. The problem is: (a) we need more employers to offer opportunities for co-op students. So that they can get that hands-on work experience while they’re still in high school. We also need more employers to take first-year apprentices. There are tons of people getting into apprenticeship, but right now there’s tons of people that are actually finished their schooling or trying to get into an apprenticeship, and no companies are giving them that first opportunity.

We’re all screaming, “Oh, there’s a shortage in skilled trades!” But I have one particular girl that’s part of my team, and she was an honour student. She graduated with—from college with a Weston Scholarship. She’s just amazing, highest marks in her class. And still sat for months and months trying to get a job, even though she had such good grades and she was such a good worker. And I don’t know the reason but people are just really not picking up those first-year apprentices—to the point where now the government has an incentive where they’re offering $5,000 for people to take that first-year apprentice.

Geoff Capelle:

Got it. So you feel like we’re getting the interest now, but it’s really just getting the right opportunities in place and setting up that structure.

Jamie McMillan:

Yup, we’re getting the interest. But we have a huge gap in employers hiring them.

And then we—we also have a problem with retention too, though. Because people are getting into the skilled trades, and when the work slows down—because sometimes it’s seasonal—they give up because they need that paycheque, or they’re going into toxic working environments and they don’t stay, or they might be single parents and they’re having trouble getting daycare or whatever the case may be. And so we have people dropping out.

Geoff Capelle:

So when you go into the schools to talk to kids, what age groups are you focusing on? Can you talk us through what a day looks like there?

Jamie McMillan:

So, I have all different age groups that I speak to.

I can, in the morning, be talking to, say, kindergarden to Grade 3, and I’m speaking to them. Doing the—all the kids have Builder Street colouring books. And we’re talking about all the different trades.

I could be talking, like, Grade 3 to 5, where I’m doing a little bit more of a mature presentation, but really driving the message home about how important it is to work with your hands. And sometimes we’ll, like, build birdhouses or do cool projects where they get that hands-on experience.

It’s really cool, because sometimes you’ll see—especially young girls that are like, “I didn’t know I could do this!” And then they get excited because they built this birdhouse, or whatever they built, and now the wheels are turning.

As I get older, I change my presentations up a little bit. And by the time I get to high school students, I really start to push them to take those skilled trade classes in school, especially construction and automotive. I think those should be mandatory credits; everybody should have to take them.

And then as they’re older, say they’re getting into co-op programs, I really talk about the realistic job previews because I never want to set students up for failure. So I do talk about how you can smile in the face of adversity and, you know, how to deal with toxic behaviours in the workplace. How to overcome and still keep your motivation to succeed.

And then when I speak to adults and older, I—I just evolve the message with the age group that I’m at.

And it’s interesting. I don’t know how I developed this talent, but usually when I lead presentations, there’s a lot of people that are extremely motivated. And I’ve had parents who had no interest in skilled trades, they’re like, “My kids are not going to do that,” and by the end of the presentation they’re coming up to me asking me about a career change.

Geoff Capelle:

Oh, that’s amazing. So responses are generally pretty good?

Jamie McMillan:

Always positive.

Geoff Capelle:

And do you see this translating into them pursuing those careers?

Jamie McMillan:

Yes. I’ve seen a lot of people pursue the careers. In fact, a couple of the team members that I have are students that I met when they were in high school that have eventually evolved into the skilled trades. And they’re very happy.

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Geoff Capelle:

Going back to that challenge of—of keeping people in the industry, can you speak about retention? Why are we not doing it effectively? What are some ideas for changing that?

Jamie McMillan:

Some people might not like some of my responses here. But I think that in order to change the workplace and bring that equitable workplace into reality, I think there’s a lot of things that we need to do.

I think we need to understand personalities better. I think that we do, like, things like sensitivity training. But really, there’s so many different types of personalities and personality disorders, and we work with people all the time. And learning how to relate to people is going to be a really big step: learning how to work with people; learning when—how to pick and choose your battles.

But learning how to be an inclusive workplace is going to take years, because there’s still so many toxic behaviours out there and so many different attitudes. There’s really the stigma around skilled trades that it is only for the men, or that it’s a dirty job. But I think that the more that we show that these are lucrative pathways, with so many different opportunities to climb the ladder within, I think that’s what’s going to start to change things and make people understand that these are great pathways.

But changing it is going to have to come from the top down. And they need to have accountability in this industry, because there’s a lot of people that get away with a lot, and oftentimes because they appear to be that really brilliant person, or they’re bringing in money somehow. Or there’s a lot of toxic people that do have high positions, and it’s hard to root them out. But recognizing that, and figuring out how to work with those types of people is going to be the ultimate game-changer, I think.

Geoff Capelle:

So let’s say there’s a superintendent listening to this podcast. What kind of advice would you give to that superintendent to make the jobsite better, more inclusive, and stronger?

Jamie McMillan:

I say give everybody equal opportunity. I mean, just because you see the name “Shelley” on the job list, put that person on, you know, fire watch or safety. Give everybody opportunities. And remember that those apprentices that are coming in, they’re there to learn. And they’re going to be the people that are running these jobsites someday. So treat them the way you wanted to be treated when you were an apprentice and when you were growing. Did you want to learn? Because you elevated yourself into such a successful leadership position, now pass on that experience and knowledge, and help these people to become that leader as well.

Sometimes people don’t like to share their knowledge, ‘cause they’re afraid that somebody might come along and push them out of their position. And that’s not good leadership. Leadership is actually enabling everybody to be creative: to have their own thinking to come with ideas.

So really allow people to be themselves. And—and put people where they’re comfortable. You know, there’s people in construction that do feel uncomfortable working with certain people, or working in certain environments. Find out where everybody wants to be and where they’re going to excel, and place them there.

Geoff Capelle:

And let’s say you’re that person in a position of power that might not be doing quite as much but then comes across an interaction that’s inappropriate—someone being treated poorly—how do you call it out effectively?

Jamie McMillan:

Ahh, that’s really difficult. Because I’ve—I’ve always dealt in an union environment, where I always have a job steward. And there’s a lot of, like I said, nepotism and favouritism on the jobsite. So when you work, you’re usually working in a cliquey group. And it’s really, really hard because you have to pick and choose your battles. And everything that you go forward with, unless you have really strong support and documentation, and often witnesses—which are really difficult to get because nobody wants to lose their job, especially on contract work where they’re all trying to stay there—it's really difficult.

So my only thing is that supervisors have to be more vigilant in watching and—and seeing what’s going on in the workplace, and understanding the dynamic. And we do have people who don’t get along on jobsites—just personality styles that don’t match up, or people that don’t have the same type of work ethic.

I remember, one time I was working with a guy, and him and I had completely different understandings of how to do things. And he couldn’t fathom that my way was going to turn out to be just as good as his way. And it was his-way-or-the-highway. And we really butted heads because I couldn’t see things his way, and he couldn’t see things my way.

And in that instance, we were just toxic working together. And it’s not because we both didn’t have good ideas, we just couldn’t see each other’s ideas. And recognizing that as a supervisor, recognizing, “Oh, maybe these people don’t work well together and mesh together,” is something that they should do, so that they can move people around to work with people that they’re better suited to work with.

Geoff Capelle:

Yeah. I think there’s a lot to be said about healthy conflict, and understanding how to do that in different personality types and working styles.

So, when you speak to folks that are leaving the industry, what are you hearing a lot of? What are the big reasons for leaving?

Jamie McMillan:

So, sometimes it’s because (a) they’re not getting enough work, so they can’t sustain that income to provide for themselves, their family, whatever. Other times it could be due to children, and they can’t get proper daycare. Or maybe they’re going through some hard times in their personal life and it’s just not working out for them. Other times it’s just that it’s extremely toxic environments and they’re trying to hold on and stay because they love the career, but they just can’t handle it with their mental health.

And that’s where we have other problems that start coming in. Some of these people are staying in these toxic workplaces, but what’s happening is they’re using other things to cope with it.

So you have people that are drinking more, and going home and maybe doing narcotics. And that’s where we’re getting some of these other issues that are coming in—like this opioid and alcoholism. And that’s pretty prevalent in here, too. When it comes to mental health, people are trying to find other coping mechanisms and they’re not always healthy.

Geoff Capelle:

How do you think we create a jobsite that is more conducive to that, that is more supportive of what we have going on in our—our personal lives?

Jamie McMillan:

It’s difficult in contract construction, because the truth is about contract construction is that we never have a secure set of hours. A lot of times we can be called to go out and do a shutdown for a month of 12-hour nightshifts. And then the very next week, after that shutdown is over, we might be called for three 8-hour dayshifts. So our schedule is all over the place. And so finding ways to help people stay in the trades based on our crazy schedules, and childcare, and stuff is really a challenge.

I think one of the things, that I’ve mentioned a few times now, is to have better childcare services for people that are in the skilled trades. So that we could be more accommodating. Because the stress, the emotional and mental stress that’s causing on families because they can’t always be available for their schedules is huge. And people miss a lot of work, and they lose jobs over it.

I’ve often talked about having like mobile daycare. Some offices have daycare right onsite. And I’ve always said like shutdowns, and big steel plants, or car plants, why can’t they have a parking lot that has a mobile daycare? If this was ever a business that could be set up, I think that would be really cool. The construction industry would definitely be a place that would have the money to, I think, be able to provide these types of things.

But also it’s educating your people. When you go in and do your orientation, you should have that training, ah, that sensitivity training—learning how to understand those personalities.

But we also need accountability. When wrong things happen in the workplace, a lot of times people aren’t reprimanded the way they should be. And there’s no accountability on the people that are causing that toxic behaviour in the workplace. And therefore we’re enabling them instead of quitting the behaviour. And that toxic work environment needs to change if we want to change everything else about this industry.

Geoff Capelle:

Yeah, that—that kills psychological safety very quickly when you don’t have that accountability.

So, what’s one big message that you would like to say to the people with positions of power on jobsites right now?

Jamie McMillan:

If you’re a person in power, please really evaluate your workplace. Go in and—and really do the research and find out where everybody is, and what they’re doing, and what attitude and behaviour, what type of personality they are. Because, a lot of times, it’s those toxic personalities that are preventing worksites from growing and making money.

And one of the things we’re losing right now in construction is a lot of money because of people not wanting to get into the industry because of the stigma around it, or not staying in the industry because that stigma is actually really happening.

It’s—it—there are many toxic work environments. So as supervisors, please go and see what is going on. Go see the boots on the ground. Don’t sit in your office and say nothing’s happening out there. Hire somebody. Hire some—like do the Undercover Boss thing. Go out there and see. Because, I can tell you, a lot of times some of those people on your jobsite that are in leadership positions sometimes are your most toxic people.

I see a future where we’re going to have more understanding of how important equity is in the workplace—equity, diversity, and inclusion. And I really hope that we’re all striving, as leaders in this industry, to make it that way. Because if we can get it to that, then I think that we’ll see the end of this labour-shortage gap and really—we’ll really start to recognize that these are incredible careers.

Geoff Capelle:

How do you feel about the future of construction and the trades?

Jamie McMillan:

I think that there’s a lot of opportunity for things to grow and—and be…. We…. I love this industry. It’s not going anywhere. And when you think about this industry, it’s evolving constantly. It’s from, as I always say, the deepest mine underground to the furthest space station out there. Like the trades are not just global anymore; they’re universal and they’re expanding.

I love the skilled trades. And I think these are lucrative pathways for everybody. But a lot of people don’t realize how vast the construction industry is. When you really think about it and you try to grasp the concept, everything outside of nature is pretty much built and maintained by people who use their hands.

So I see the construction industry evolving and getting better. I see superstructures. I see more structures that are going to be built that are more environmentally-friendly, more durable for super-storms.

I think that we’re going to be constantly evolving in this construction industry. And I just think that the sky is the limit. I just think that it’s going to keep evolving and becoming cooler and cooler.

People always are afraid that robots and stuff are going to take over for us. And I don’t believe that’s true. I think that it’s just going to open more opportunity. Because in order to build these robots, we need the manufacturing plants; in order to keep these robots maintained, we need people to build and maintain them. So I think that it’s just going to keep evolving.

And I think that as we get older and the younger generation that we’re trying to educate to fill the gap has a different understanding and a different attitude about the trades, I hope that one day we end up seeing this being just an amazing opportunity for people—that we realize this is like a blue-collar career with a white-collar salary, that has more opportunities for global growth and to expand than any other industry.

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Geoff Capelle:

Thanks for checking out this episode of Building Good. If you want other people to find their dream job in skilled trades, please share this episode with a friend or co-worker, maybe even your friendly neighbourhood welder.

Building Good is a Vocal Fry Studios production, supported by Chandos Construction and Bird Construction. The executive producer is Jay Cockburn. Our producer is Kattie Laur, with production assistance from Jessica Loughlin. I’m Geoff Capelle, thanks for listening.